FMs - Ghost/Perfect Thief
Results (Part 5)
__________________________________________
1. 16th Mar 2004, 01:07 #201
Old Man
o View Profile
o View Forum Posts
o Private Message
Gamer
Join Date
Jun 2002
Posts
395
Re: I never found it
Originally posted by dafydd
[Old Man]
...How do you get to that secret passage up to the second floor?
Dafydd
________________________________________
2. 16th Mar 2004, 01:58 #202
dafydd
o View Profile
o View Forum Posts
o Private Message
Gamer
Join Date
Aug 2002
Posts
318
Tedious?
[Old Man]
No, I just didn't notice it, that's all!
Dafydd
________________________________________
3. 30th Mar 2004, 04:41 #203
Peter_Smith
o View Profile
o View Forum Posts
o Private Message
Moderator
Join Date
Feb 2000
Posts
2,704
The Relic
FM: The Relic (entry in Komag's Contest 5)
File: c5Relic.zip
Play mode: Ghost (success)
Perfect Thief (failed)
Time: 2:51
Loot: 3738 of 3888 (2000 required)
Pockets picked: 2 of 3 (all)
Backstabs: 0
Knockouts: 0
Kills: 0
Damage dealt: 1 (required to meet objective)
Damage received: 0
Secrets: 4 of 4
Comments
This is a nice little city mission with plenty of buildings to explore and lots of things to do. As a C5 mission, where space is at a premium, the quarters are a little cramped, but nevertheless the use of space is very good. It seems like there are a lot of secrets in this mission. Lots more than four. Little switches. Objectives are continually being added, which keeps the interest going. When you think you are done, you are only getting started. Hence, the long time searching around for things you didn't know you needed.
The buildings have shutters in the windows. If you open them you will be probably be spotted by the guards outside. In fact, there are some places where you can be spotted by guards behind closed shutters. It seems that some of them may be transparent. I think that the designer intended this mission to be ghostable, but also planned on your being caught a lot. I reloaded quite a few times.
There are a few trouble spots. One is getting through the chapel to a door that leads outside. It turns out you don't have to do that because there is a switch that moves a sarcophagus in the shrine room (inside the sacristy), and you can get out there the back way. Still, before finding the switch I was intent on going out there, and I did. It required both moss and dodging behind a pillar.
Another trouble spot is in the police station. That guard is very goosy. There are some coins on a window sill in there that are a little problem to snag. I crept all around that guard and was disappointed to find no rewards for doing so other than to be trapped in a cell with a display telling me how foolish I was to go in a cell if I wasn't forced to.
A small trouble spot was the store window with guards patrolling outside. That was a question of timing, but again it is very easy to get caught there. I went into the display window to get some some flowers used in a puzzle. I think there are some easier, safer flowers elsewhere, but I did not know it at the time.
There are also six gold coin stacks behind a banner in that store window. The loot is too far back to snag through the banner, so I think Perfect Thief is impossible. Other than 150 loot behind the banner, I got it all.
Another trouble spot for me, but I think it is not a general problem, was finding the key for the cemetery. I frobbed that switch by the sarcophagus, and it did not move. I think I may have been standing too close to the sarcophagus and prevented its movement. I left the area, and it still did not move. Much later I came back there out of desperation and as soon as I entered the room the sarcophagus moved back, revealing the key. So, I wasted about 45 minutes of game play hunting for something that I should have been able to find right away.
The knockout was needed to complete an objective to put the cruel doctor in a cell so he could experience the starvation he was practicing on others. Its is possible that the objective could be bypassed by not reading a book somewhere, but that is not the way I play. If I get an objective, I do it. Anyway, it is not a bust according to accepted interpretations of the rules.
________________________________________
4. 5th Apr 2004, 00:18 #204
dafydd
o View Profile
o View Forum Posts
o Private Message
Gamer
Join Date
Aug 2002
Posts
318
Lord Alan's Basement (T2 Version)
FM: Lord Alan's Basement (T2 Version)
File: Basement2.zip
Play mode: Ghost (success)
Perfect Thief (failed)
Time: 3:16
Loot: 4784 of 5178 (3500 required)
Pockets picked: 17 of 18 (all?)
Backstabs: 0
Knockouts: 0
Kills: 0
Damage dealt: 0
Damage received: 0
Secrets: 0 of 0
Comments
Not much to say here. Vanguard already ghosted this one, and I'm sure I didn't do anything much different than what he did.
I never bothered with the double-gate room; I didn't see what was the point. There didn't seem to be anything in any of the rooms worthwhile, and it appeared as though it was possible to get into both connecting rooms by other routes. So I bypassed it.
The only question I have is the one that Vanguard didn't address: to get the Hand of Glory, you have to get past a deadly force field. The only way to do so is to toss in a sunburst device and set it off with a fire arrow.
Doing this doesn't alert any of the AI outside (in the T2 version; Vanguard reports that in the Thief Gold version, the AI outside were much more sensitive, so perhaps in that version, they would be alerted... but since the TG version is unghostable anyway, per Vanguard, it really doesn't matter).
But does shutting off the field by blowing it up count as "property damage?" Evidently Vanguard didn't think so, as he counted his ghost effort a success (in T2). I can see a good argument why it should not, but a slight argument why it should count as property damage:
If you consider the field itself to be "property," then clearly property was destroyed. I don't think there is precedent in the ghost annals for counting forms of energy as property.
But something must be generating that field, even though it's not in evidence (and doubtless doesn't really exist in the mission design), and presumably there is at least a chance that what you're "really" doing is blowing up the generator -- which would of course count as property damage.
But on the other side,
1) There is no visible damage; the field is simply not there any longer, which is no worse than a camera or an alarm being turned off when the guard knows he left it on;
2) We have no way of knowing whether the field generator is destroyed or the field itself is simply momentarily interrupted because the sunburst device knocked the parameters akilter... perhaps the next guard who comes by can just readjust the field parameters back to mass: 100, alpha: 80, fluid: 95, x:0.25, y:0.27, and z:0.89, and "keep air and fire," and the field will pop back into existence (without the Hand of Glory, however);
3) In any event, it's a hard mission (even the T2 version, which is evidently easier than the TG), and that's the only way to get one of the objectives... so since there is no visible damage, I think it's reasonable to say that doesn't bust the ghost.
Erring on the side of caution doesn't require manufacturing non-existent machines to suffer invisible damage just so you can bust your own ghost!
Dafydd
________________________________________
5. 2nd May 2004, 20:55 #205
dafydd
o View Profile
o View Forum Posts
o Private Message
Gamer
Join Date
Aug 2002
Posts
318
Crickets chirping again....
Wow, I go away to Japan for two weeks, and nobody posts a word in this topic!
Nobody's ghosting anymore?
(I'm writing this post mostly to pop the top back up top, perhaps inspiring someone to go ghost something and write it up here.)
And on that note....
Dafydd
________________________________________
6. 2nd May 2004, 21:06 #206
dafydd
o View Profile
o View Forum Posts
o Private Message
Gamer
Join Date
Aug 2002
Posts
318
Mystic Lady (I think)
FM: Mystic Lady (?) - Die Geheimnisvolle Lady
File: Mystlady.zip
Play mode: Ghost (success)
Perfect Thief (failed)
Time: 0:57
Loot: 7022 of 8312 (5000 required)
Pockets picked: 5 of 13
Backstabs: 0
Knockouts: 0
Kills: 0
Damage dealt: 0
Damage received: 0
Secrets: 0 of 1
Comments
This is just a cutesy FM written as a present by Christine for Dinksmallwood, who was so enamored of the gift that she gave it to Epithumia to be shared with the thiefly world.
There is nothing really difficult from a ghosting perspective. Somehow I managed to miss the secret, however, along with most of the pickpockets and a huge chunk of the loot! I think I was moving too fast, and I'll probably go back and see if I can figure out what I missed the first time.
Dafydd
________________________________________
7. 4th May 2004, 06:20 #207
dafydd
o View Profile
o View Forum Posts
o Private Message
Gamer
Join Date
Aug 2002
Posts
318
Lady Whitman's Disease
FM: Lady Whitman's Disease (Thief 2 version)
File: lwd_t2.zip
Play mode: Ghost (success)
Perfect Thief (failed)
Time: 1:48
Loot: 1914 of 2164 (1400 required)
Pockets picked: 4 of 5 (all?)
Backstabs: 0
Knockouts: 0
Kills: 0
Damage dealt: 0
Damage received: 0
Secrets: 0 of 0
Comments
Nothing to see here... just move along!
Dafydd
________________________________________
8. 5th May 2004, 05:46 #208
Peter_Smith
o View Profile
o View Forum Posts
o Private Message
Moderator
Join Date
Feb 2000
Posts
2,704
Re: Crickets chirping again....
Originally posted by dafydd
Nobody's ghosting anymore?
Not many, at least not many willing to write them up. I've been ghosting a little bit, but have been kind of tied up lately. My latest attempt, Sterlino's mission, has failed miserably. Keep up the good work, Dafydd.
________________________________________
9. 6th May 2004, 00:36 #209
dafydd
o View Profile
o View Forum Posts
o Private Message
Gamer
Join Date
Aug 2002
Posts
318
Sterlino's mission?
You mean Horns of Canzo? I couldn't even make the sucker run -- and my system is hardly underpowered! (P4, 2.4 GHz, 1 Gb RAM, MSI GeForce4 Ti 4200 with 64 Mb on the card, DirectX 9.0b)
There is something drastically wrong with the mission, and last I read, Sterlino is so sick of fiddling with it that he has quit, at least temporarily.
It seemed interesting, but there were some problems with the earlier version, too; I didn't have framerate problems (which is what stopped me on 0.95c), but on the a or b version, I forget which, I ran into an AI who could not only see me when my light gem was totally black, he could see me right through the tavern wall! It drove me nuts, and I finally abandoned it for the newer (and, I thought, better) version -- which turned out to be unplayable.
I ended up just deleting them. Too bad; I loved the graphics (after I got used to the neon effect), especially those spiffy uniforms on the guards. And this is just the second mission I've played with a continuous, in-game weapon shop, and I wanted to see how it would work: suppose I just barely satisfied the loot requirement; if I then went and bought something, would that uncheck the objective again? I'd have to go find more loot to be able to finish?
I hope Sterlino takes a few days rest, has a couple of apple martinis, and dives back in. If he can solve the framerate problem, I think he'll have an excellent FM.
Dafydd
________________________________________
10. 6th May 2004, 00:54 #210
dafydd
o View Profile
o View Forum Posts
o Private Message
Gamer
Join Date
Aug 2002
Posts
318
The Trickster's Castle
FM: The Trickster's Castle
File: TheTrickstersCastle.zip
Play mode: Ghost (failed)
Reason for failure: Trickster alerts while being killed; AI alerted when I set off sunburst device to open cemetary gates for escape.
Zero damage taken: success
Time: 4:57
Loot: 8149 of 9255 (7600 required)
Pockets picked: 4 of 11 ?!
Backstabs: 0
Knockouts: 0
Kills: 1
Damage dealt: 481
Damage received: 0
Secrets: 0 of 0
Comments
The death was killing the Trickster, or the "Prime Evil" (evidently, Dark Ghost Lord is under the impression that primeval means "most evil," rather than "primitive" ).
(Which reminds me of my ex girlfriend, who would say "that's silly... in fact, that's more than silly -- it's SUPER-cilious.")
There appears to be no way to kill the Prime Evil with a single blow, a backstab, or to knock him out with the blackjack; the only thing I found that works is repeated fire arrows -- I mean on the order of seventeen or eighteen -- while you dodge his missile attacks of various sorts. Fortunately, there is an ample supply of fire arrows tucked behind one of the pillars... just as at the very beginning of the mission, there is a huge cache of stuff over by the apebeasts and ents.
But this means it's impossible to ghost, because after the first fire-arrow shot, the Prime Evil is of course alerted. I did manage to avoid getting injured, but that's about all I can say.
Also, at the very end, Garrett is required to escape by the back door, which means through the cemetary gate. But the gate is "stuck," and the only way to open it is by plopping a sunburst device (from the room across the hall from the main chapel) in front of the gates and setting it off with a fire arrow. Alas, there are three or four AI in the cemetary, and they will hear the explosion even when they're all the way on the other side of the graveyard. They stop, stare, then run over to see what happened... which pretty much counts as an alert in my book.
There is really nothing ghostworthy to report; the enjoyment and the annoyances of this mission all come from the mission itself, not from the attempt to ghost it; if you can complete the mission, you can ghost the mission, except for the two parts that I believe are unghostable.
Ah, one tough part: in the cemetary, down the hole in the center, you will find a lake; there is a big hammer in there, which is major loot. However, there are four Craymen, two little spiders, and one big spider parading around the lake (plus a Crayman on the bottom of the lake, but he doesn't seem to hear too well)... it's almost impossible to jump into the water without alerting any of these eight enemies. I did manage finally to do it (on about the seventh reload), waiting until they were all on the other side from me.
But other than that, there's nothing of great interest particularly to ghosters. If someone can figure out how to kill the Prime Evil without alerting him or how to blow open the gates without waking up the evil dead, please let me know.
Dafydd
________________________________________
11. 7th May 2004, 00:01 #211
dafydd
o View Profile
o View Forum Posts
o Private Message
Gamer
Join Date
Aug 2002
Posts
318
Re: Crickets
I'm quite curious about the phenomenon of people not posting much here anymore. (As usual, I seem to have gotten involved at just the wrong moment, when everybody else was leaving!)
Is it that people are no longer playing ghost mode? Or are they just tired of writing reports about it?
In my case, I discover I have already played all the "good" FMs (as judged by rankings, hammers, and WOM), and I'm always reluctant to replay a mission. Maybe if I played something I first played a long time ago, I will have forgotten most of it....
So at the moment, I'm basically sitting around waiting for some good stuff to be released. I went through an orgy of gaming when the Contest 5 entries became available; but of course, they're all small, not big campaigns like the Night Falcon or huge missions like Calendra's Cistern & Legacy. Went through 'em pretty quickly.
I'm also a bit concerned that when T3 comes out (without a T3 DromEd), that we won't see any more FMs at all, because it will be impossible to make a T3 fan mission, and after playing T3, people won't be able to tolerate T2/T1. It's probably an unreasonable fear on my part, but I can't help fretting nonetheless.
Every so often, I discover a "good one" that I unaccountably missed; I'm just about to play Events in Highrock, for example. But the glory days, when I could look forward to literally scores of really good missions I had yet to play, are gone forever.
I've "caught up," more or less, and I can only play new missions at the same rate that they're released.
But I will still always try ghosting first, and I'll write up anything interesting here. Just for old times' sake.
Dafydd
________________________________________
12. 8th May 2004, 06:31 #212
dafydd
o View Profile
o View Forum Posts
o Private Message
Gamer
Join Date
Aug 2002
Posts
318
Skeletons In the Closet
FM: Skeletons In the Closet
File: skelintclos.zip
Play mode: Ghost (succeeded)
Perfect Thief (failed)
Time: 3:39
Loot: 8106 of 9421 (8000 required)
Pockets picked: 21 of 28
Backstabs: 0
Knockouts: 0
Kills: 0
Damage dealt: 0
Damage received: 0
Secrets: 0 of 0
Comments
By contrast, this mission is a lot harder if you ghost, and there are several tough spots, definitely worth ghosting. The beginning is boring, but don't let that throw you; it picks up a lot in the second or third plaza, and the last part is a lot of fun.
The first problem I encountered was downstairs in the pirates' lair. (I know Old Man doesn't like to, but the rest of youse should read the documents! The pirates' log book, foolishly left out for any passing thief to see, mentions that they're off to loot the mayor's house... which is how I later identified which house was the mayor's, something I needed to find in order to fulfill a later objective.)
The pirates mention that they found a tunnel that leads into the fort; it's beneath some boxes in their lair. I followed it and came to an unopenable banner. On an exploratory raid, I slashed it open and dropped inside. I believe that Garrett being in the basement causes the female archer to freeze on the stairs up; I was forced to KO her (since I knew this was a recon run, and I would reload later).
A bit of looking around convinced me that I had to get inside the fort legitimately somehow. Not only was there a lot of loot, but the fort contained the office of Dubois, where I had to leave incriminating evidence about who killed my blackmailer contact, Gilberto. (In Dubois's room under the bed is also where I found the blackmail note; when I picked it up, I got a new objective to drop it on the mayor's desk -- it reveals that the mayor's wife has been having a dalliance with Dubois.) There is also a weapons room, where I needed to stock up.
I prowled around, finally heading all the way up to the roof, where I found three people hanged from the gallows... and there I finally found the way out: a ramp led down to the street again; there were AI, but it was passable. I breathed a sigh of relief, since if there were no such "legal" entrance, the mission would have been unghostable! I left down the ramp, then turned around and looked back, satisfied I would recognize it again when I returned. Then I reloaded and continued on.
(I made my way to the water -- but just before the passage that leads to the canal, there is a round guardhouse on stilts; on the right-hand (east) side of the building north of the guardhouse is an alley. At the end of my game, I was still short by a little less than 100 gold; I was completely out of water arrows and getting desperate. Acting on a tip from the TTLG topic on this mission, I went down that alley and found a wooden shutter, which I opened. By hopping up, I found a tiara that was worth 200 gold, so I was able to finish. I've put this here so that the alert readers can get this loot on the way, rather than having to get it on the way back.)
So, I made my way to the canal zone. There are a lot of AI here, and their patrols seem to have random components, or else they're complex enough that they may as well be random.
I headed across the canal and through the rabbit warren of streets. I found a lodge with a bit of loot, and I found a guard in front of the red-light district (well, one brothel with a red light, easily looted). Eventually, I worked my way around to the ramp that I knew from reconoissance led up into the fort.
I snuck up past the guards and looted the fort, also picking up the blackmail note; but I didn't yet have any evidence about who killed Gilberto; so I knew I would have to return later. I returned to the canal. I wanted to jump into it and explore, but there were a lot of guards around who would hear the splash if they were close enough.
But I found that if I went to a point halfway between the gate near the mayor's house and the passageway past the lantern guard, I could slide in (when no one was around) without alerting anyone.
I was able to crouch in the water, though that took my head below the surface (once, I wasn't paying attention, and I drowned!) I trucked along past the gate, underneath the big bridge, and underneath another building. I discovered that although it doesn't really look like it, I could stand up beneath the building and be able to breathe, which made the next part much easier.
There is a hole in the floor of the building, and I was able to pop my head up inside and steal a bunch of stuff that the pirates were piling there, being in the process of robbing the mayor's house. Thieving from thieves -- fair game, eh? But the leader of the housebreakers keeps popping into and out of the building very quickly, and it was hard to time it right so I didn't get caught. Since I could stand with my head outside the water but still not up the hole in the building floor, I could watch for when the chief thief was just leaving the building: I scooped up everything then darted back to my dark spot. I waited until he came and went, then zipped out, mantled up onto the floor, and fled through the door and off to the left, just before he returned. I got a "hey!" from him but no searching alert.
This mission is highly nonlinear, which I like... but it means I did things rather out of order. I'll rearrange it here into a more coherent pattern. I followed the chief thief back and found the back door of the mayor's house. There was a thief guard outside, next to a stairway that led up to the door. A bright lantern sat on the landing, illuminating nearly all the area around there except what was in the shadow of the stairs.
The problem is that the thief guard has really, really good peripheral vision: if I went up the stairs, he caught me out of the corner of his left eye and ran up to pummel me with his blade. So what to do?
Clearly, I had to nudge him. But -- to get around on the proper side to nudge (forward and around the back of the stair, so he couldn't see me as I ascended), I had to be on the right-hand side of the thief guard... right in the bright illumination of the lantern. And every few seconds, the chief thief would either go up the stairs into the house or down the stairs back to the building where they had stashed their loot (which I had stolen), and in either direction, he could see me if I were in the light. I had at most eight to ten seconds to nudge when he was gone.
So I had to crouch in the shadows, wait for the chief thief to go past, then crouch-run around to the correct side, push hard to nudge the thief guard a single step, and then crouch-run back to shadow before the chief returned. It was very slow, very demanding nudging: I saved after every time I managed to move him, no matter how slight... because I very often overstayed my welcome on the nudging and got busted. It took forever, but I finally got him into position where he couldn't see the stair even with his wraparound vision. I waited for the next time the chief was gone (towards the loot=stash building, of course) and ran up the stairs and into the mayor's house.
There is some loot upstairs, but the desk I wanted, where I had to leave the blackmail note, was downstairs in the room to the left off the entrance hall... the room that the chief thief would pop into some of the times he entered the house. (The room on the other side of the hall had a female thief with a huge candlestick in her hand; I read that if you're caught stealing it, she runs after you shouting "that's my #&$*#@! candlestick!" I cannot verify this at first hand, because, ahem, I didn't alert her.)
I returned to the ramp that led up to the fort. Around the corner was a gate, which I think I had to pick open. I sneaked around a stationary guard, followed a patroller, and found the street that led eventually to the bank at its end. There was a wooden platform on the left; I roped up, climbed down the ladder inside, and found a measely purse. But the real purpose of the platform was as a launching pad. I jumped to the enclosure next door (same side of the street, away from the bank) and found some loot, I think. Then I returned to the platform and went the other way: there is a wooden ledge from which I was able to enter the rooms of a sleeping couple. They left some literature lying about that indicated the "drunk across the street" was howling about having killed someone. Gilberto?
I returned to the platform, then ran and leapt off towards the enclosure across the street. I aimed to ricochet off the railing and silently, without damage, into the roof garden. Inside, I found a confession from the drunk that he had, indeed, killed Gilberto. I grabbed it and headed downstairs. I used a pair of boxes to exit back onto the street... but I found I couldn't get through the gate leading to the bank area. When I looked, I realized that the drunk's house looked over that gate, however -- and there was an openable, shuttered window.
I returned to the platform yet again -- then realized I could get back to the ramp up to the fort by walking along the ledge from the side where the couple's window was to the back; it was, in fact, the ledge that bordered the ramp. I returned and left the drunk's confession on Dubois's desk, then returned along the ledge to the front side again and back to the platform.
I jumped into the drunk's roof garden again, and fetched the boxes back from downstairs. Stacking a couple allowed me to crawl out the window at the top of the stairs, down onto a pile of boxes inside the gated area of the bank. The inner gate to the bank itself wasn't locked, but the bank doors were... and none of my keys would work. A guard patrolled up and down just inside; my only option was the irritating pattern of darting forward, picking the bank-door lock for a few seconds, then darting back before the patroller turned and saw me.
I finally got it open and zipped inside (marble floors, of course).
The one guard inside was asleep, and the Watcher was easy to beat. But I was still a little short on loot, so I wandered off disconsolately, searching for someone else to rob.
I finally found the last place I hadn't yet hit, at least that I know of (considering that I missed about 1300 worth of loot, I suspect there are one or two places that evaded my gimlet eye). It was the inn across from the stationary guard near the lamppost, and thereby hangs an annoyance. I had to evade the gaze of the guard, who turned rather rapidly hither and yon; I unlocked the door with one of the keys I had gotten, got on the handle side, and opened it. When the guard turned his back, I ran to the door... but inside there was a woman in red who freaked out everytime she saw me and ran for the hills.
It didn't matter that everybody else in the inn ignored me (just another patron). No matter how casually I walked near her, she screamed, started back, then pelted for the door shouting for the guard.
I think this is a simple mistake on the author's part; certainly it makes no sense in the context of the mission. I had to run to the front doorway, then creep ever so slowly through the doorway into the room, so my light gem wouldn't brighten to the point where she could see me. And once inside, I had to avoid the game room, kitchen, and basement, none of which I could reach without her climbing the walls like a coked-out lab rat. Pity; there was 100 gold worth of candlesticks in there, and I was running just about 100 short of being able to finish.
Oddly, I found two doors upstairs that I could not open with any of my keys (including a key found in the inn itself) or the lockpicks. I have no idea how you open them or what's inside.
I left, still looking for that last little bit that would allow me to finish; and that was when I read about the loot in the building across from the round guardhouse on stilts. I nabbed it, and that was all I needed.
It was a bit tricky escaping, mainly because at the end (beginning) of the mission, there were two guard AIs who danced a complex lobster quadrille; I ended up having to weave in among them to get back into the starting plaza and end the game.
So that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
Dafydd
________________________________________
13. 15th May 2004, 20:00 #213
dafydd
o View Profile
o View Forum Posts
o Private Message
Gamer
Join Date
Aug 2002
Posts
318
Fingers crossed....
After several bad failures in a row -- such bungled attempts at ghosting that I didn't even bother reporting, it was so embarassing... Events in Highrock, Jenivere De Ja Vu, and Rogue's Honor, each of which I finished only by resorting to wholesale blackjacking of the general populace and being chased around the grounds by overzealous but footslow guards -- I think I'm doing pretty well in Business at Midnight. So I hope to be posting another report soon with either a success or a near-enough miss that I don't feel dorky even putting it up.
(Actually, I'm just bringing this topic up to the top again, hoping that somebody else will post something. Anything!)
Dafydd
________________________________________
14. 15th May 2004, 20:54 #214
Gumdrop
o View Profile
o View Forum Posts
o Private Message
Gamer
Join Date
Jan 2001
Posts
941
Thumbs Up
Keep up the good ghost, dafydd, you have an avid reader.
________________________________________
15. 17th May 2004, 09:17 #215
dafydd
o View Profile
o View Forum Posts
o Private Message
Gamer
Join Date
Aug 2002
Posts
318
"Events" still hanging fire
I'm stymied at a particular point of Events in Highrock: I'm in the Evidence Room, and I can't figure out how to open the window (to get something inside) without smashing it open with my sword -- which is the only option that anybody on any of the TTLG threads has suggested.
While I'm waiting to hear, I took a break and played the new Christine FM, A Coterie of Smokers. See next rock.
Dafydd
________________________________________
16. 17th May 2004, 09:25 #216
dafydd
o View Profile
o View Forum Posts
o Private Message
Gamer
Join Date
Aug 2002
Posts
318
A Coterie of Smokers
FM: A Coterie of Smokers
File: Rauchergesellschaft.zip
Play mode: Ghost (succeeded)
Perfect Thief (failed)
Time: 3:23
Loot: 7252 of 8402 (7000 required)
Pockets picked: 10 of 17 (I'm skeptical there are really 17 pockets...)
Backstabs: 0
Knockouts: 0
Kills: 0
Damage dealt: 0
Damage received: 0
Secrets: 0 of 0
Comments
There isn't too much to say about this mission; the mission itself is lovely, both in terms of architecture and playability -- new objectives popping up as you read literature, guards whose difficult patrols must be carefully timed, lots of Z-axis movement required. But the fun is all in the normal mission, and ghosting doesn't really add anything to it: it's all pretty much standard sneaking.
I ended up with a couple of invisibility potions, but I didn't use them. Likewise, I only had to nudge a single AI: the gal in the kitchen. I nudged her forward enough that I could frob the plates and such stored over the sink. (When I came back later, I discovered that she had turned herself around to face the opposite direction... something which often happens when you nudge an AI really close to a wall.) Don't forget the three water arrows in a wicker basket in the kitchen!
As usual with Christine's missions, there are so many cakes and pies and sausages -- and of course, the ubiquitous doughnuts that are Christine's trademark -- that you may well gain a couple of pounds just playing the thing.
Warning! Once in the secret lab, you can open the "cell" by frobbing the skeleton's shoes. Don't do it! There's a Haunt in there, and he will immediately alert and attack the Mechanist, busting your ghost but good!
Fun, but not particularly noteworthy, as far as ghosting goes.
Dafydd
________________________________________
17. 1st Jul 2004, 21:03 #217
dafydd
o View Profile
o View Forum Posts
o Private Message
Gamer
Join Date
Aug 2002
Posts
318
Moth to a Flame
FM: Moth to a Flame
File: MothToAFlame.zip
Play mode: Ghost (succeeded, chemical ghost)
Perfect Thief (failed, big time)
Time: 3:22
Loot: 7218 of 9213 (6000 required)
Pockets picked: 15 of 22 (I'm skeptical there are really 22 pockets...)
Backstabs: 0
Knockouts: 0
Kills: 0
Damage dealt: 0
Damage received: 0
Secrets: 2 of 2
Comments
It's a little dicey reporting ghosting a mission I helped beta test, but what the heck!
The beta version was pretty much unghostable for two or three reasons; I noted those, but I fear that the author, madwolf, veered a bit too hard the other direction; the released version of the mission is a lot of fun -- but it's too easy to ghost, now.
For example, there was a lantern guard in the beta who seemed to have 360-degree peripheral vision: no matter what angle you were at, even directly behind him, if you were lit up, he would see you. And since he was carrying a lantern.... <g> Now, it's possible to lift his key (which you need for a bunch of loot) -- but I just ran up behind him and did it; it didn't feel challenging at all. Maybe I just got lucky this time; but in the beta, I had run up behind him at exactly the same place and got caught every time.
In the beta, madwolf had a guard in the bank plaza who was standing under an electric light (most of the lights in this mission are electric); there was also a patroller who passed through this same area, as well as a patrolling theater manager. The geometry was such that it was absolutely impossible to ghost through this room. I suggested a couple of possible changes, and madwolf did in fact change the position... alas, he moved the guard far enough away from the light (next to the route out) that I ended up just running behind him while he was turned facing up the street -- and I got past in two seconds.
I suggested ways to make the mission not unghostable, but I'm afraid the author went a step further and tried to make it ghostable. They sound like synonyms, but language isn't a binary functional, and they're not: when you design a mission to be ghostable, you generally make ghosting too easy. Unfortunately, as fun as this mission is -- and it's a very good mission -- it's too easily ghosted.
Except at the very end. In an odd denoument, after recovering the bank swag, Garrett is supposed to release a prisoner from the gaol. The relevant area comprises several cells... and in the first cell, which you must pass in order to get to the one you must open, there is a pagan staring directly out the cell door who alerts every time Garrett passes. Yeesh! Fortunately, I had an invisibility potion (from a secret area); otherwise, I wouldn't have been able to ghost successfully.
Other than that, no other potions, one guard nudged slightly (so I could reach a lever to open the gate to the ramp up to the ritzy hill area), only one moss arrow and a couple of water arrows used.
I wish there had been one more beta; I would have noted the pendulum swing, and madwolf (an excellent mission designer who actually listens to his beta testers!) would definitely have upped the ghosting difficulty.
Dafydd
________________________________________
18. 2nd Jul 2004, 17:47 #218
madwolf
o View Profile
o View Forum Posts
o Private Message
New Player
Join Date
Dec 2002
Posts
16
I think the points you make are very fair Dafydd, and as I intimated to you during testing this stems from my never having been a ghoster. I'm afraid It never occured to me to make it ghostable simply because it's not my style of play. Therefore I may well, as you suggest, have gone too far in the other direction. Oh well, lesson learned, at least us non-ghosters can have plenty of fun knocking people out! Seriously I've taken on board what you say and will bear it in mind next time.
One thing though; I never altered the Lantern guard in any way whatsoever, you were just lucky, he'll get you next time.
Cheers and thanks for testing!
{Full list of testers are on the readme.}
________________________________________
19. 3rd Jul 2004, 07:16 #219
dafydd
o View Profile
o View Forum Posts
o Private Message
Gamer
Join Date
Aug 2002
Posts
318
Most important point
Madwolf, I hope you got the most important point of my ghost report: that ghosting aside, the mission itself is a beaut. I really liked it; after several FMs in a row that were less than adequate from various authors, I was very happy to get first yours and then Moghedian's, dragging the average way, way up.
Thanks, guy!
Dafydd
________________________________________
20. 3rd Jul 2004, 08:19 #220
madwolf
o View Profile
o View Forum Posts
o Private Message
New Player
Join Date
Dec 2002
Posts
16
Thumbs Up
No problem!
________________________________________
21. 28th Jul 2004, 01:12 #221
dafydd
o View Profile
o View Forum Posts
o Private Message
Gamer
Join Date
Aug 2002
Posts
318
Profane Ascension
FM: Profane Ascension
File: ProfaneAscension.zip
Play mode: Ghost (failed)
Reasons for failure:
1) Alerted zombie exiting from area with golden skull
2) Alerted nearby Hammerites when I assassinated bad guy
3) Used walkthrough to find one item
Time: 2:43
Loot: 1762 of 2007 (1200 required)
Pockets picked: 0 of 1 (probably 0 of 0)
Backstabs: 0
Knockouts: 0
Kills: 1 (required by objective)
Damage dealt: 20
Damage received: 0
Bodies discovered by enemies: 1
Secrets: 0 of 0
Comments
The mission is truly great for sneaking: long, bright stretches, lots of guards, with miniscule patches of shadow at irregular intervals... and usually, the patches are only temporarily safe (I had to get out before the guard came back the other direction, on which path he bumps into and catches me). It's a combination undead/Hammerite mission, with the Hammerites actually allied with the undead (who are, I supposed, under the control of the bad acolyte who is allied with the Hams).
At the very beginning, I spawned in bright light twenty-five feet behind a guard who was just about to attack a zombie. I dashed for cover (to the right); then while they were duking it out, I ran forward along the right-hand wall into some slight shadow.
Here is the first problem: if the zombie wins the fight, he usually spots Garrett. I had to reload a few times until the guard won -- the zombie lying down and the guard continuing to hack at the dead undead corpse. Since the guard keeps his back to me for a while, I was able to open the big double doors dart into the Academy, where the rest of the game action takes place.
I shut the doors behind me and went to the right. Big mistake! I could get into the courtyard, which was filled with zombies fighting guards... but there seemed to be no way to get into the inner courtyard without a zombie spotting me.
(I realized later there is a better way in... if I could have shot a rope arrow into the wooden beam to the left of the balcony above the initial door -- where the guard and zombie were fighting as I spawned -- and climbed up to the balcony, I could have gotten inside a more sneaky and thiefly way. But I'm not sure this is possible without alerting the guard.)
In any event, I reloaded, and this time, after getting past the guard & zombie tango, I darted to the left side of the corridor, then mantled through the window on the left. I dropped into darkness as the zombies finished mopping up the guards. Staying close to the left wall, I was able to walk around the outer courtyard to the arches separating it from the inner courtyard without being spotted by any zombies. (There is a door on the left as you go, but the room is full of a haunt, and you can't get anywhere in there without backstabbing him. So I let it drop.)
The middle arch had some shadow, so I crept through there into the inner courtyard, thence to the right: a door there led to a set of stairs heading up to the first-and-a-halfth floor.
As the rest is just good, old-fashioned sneaking, I'll jump directly to my two overt failures. After retrieving the golden skull (in the area accessed by a secret door in the kitchen and patrolled by a lantern-bearing ghost who didn't actually notice me, even when he walked right through me), I had to come back along a short corridor with a lit statue; the emitter at the end of the corridor had earlier fired a purple spitball at me, but I ducked. The corridor had an empty side-corridor poking off the middle, where the statue is.
Returning from the golden skull, however, the side-corridor was no longer empty: now it had a zombie in it facing directly towards the corridor I had to traverse. There was enough light that he couldn't fail to spot me. I tried everything but couldn't get past him without an alert. I even shot moss arrows, quaffed a speed potion, and tried running past him... but he still alerted. Finally, I just outran him and hid until he went away.
My second overt failure was when I assassinated (per instructions) the bad acolyte whose name I misremember. Darthwhiner or somesuch. Alas, he was standing in the cathedral with a Hammerite mage bodyguard at each elbow. There was no way way to sneak up on him; his back was to the wall, and I would have had to work my way through a phalanx of Hammerite guards. I tried jumping from the balcony where I was onto the floor behind the mages (after first mossing the floor), but there are also guards on the sides staring directly where I had to land. So I had to resort to Plan B, which was to shoot him from the balcony. I did this... but every time, the killing alerted the two mages next to the bad acolyte.
If somebody figures out a way to pull off either of these objectives without busting the ghost, I will be supremely impressed!
The only other ghost bust was that I couldn't find the Tome of the Necromancer, so I had to glance at a paragraph of the walkthrough. Good thing; I never would have found it. Note that I didn't have to slash any banners to grab the Tome; I could frob it right through the banner.
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
Dafydd
________________________________________
22. 12th Aug 2004, 00:57 #222
dafydd
o View Profile
o View Forum Posts
o Private Message
Gamer
Join Date
Aug 2002
Posts
318
So Long, Hammers!
FM: So Long, Hammers!
File: SoLongHammers.zip
Play mode: Ghost (succeeded)
Perfect Thief (failed, but pretty close -- for me)
Time: 3:37
Loot: 2052 of 2112 (1800 required)
Pockets picked: 5 of 9
Backstabs: 0
Knockouts: 0
Kills: 0
Damage dealt: 0
Damage received: 0
Secrets: 7 of 7
Comments
Not much to say here; no really, big, hairy ghosting problems.
I really enjoyed this small but effective mission, which seemed a lot larger than I expected.
The fun in this mission is the mission itself, though of course, ghosting always an extra layer of challenge and enjoyment. But it's just sneaking about; there are no ghosting brain-busters in here!
The secrets are very well hidden. I found four of them without any help, but I looked at a list of secrets for the last three. I did, however, have enough moolah to finish the mission after the first four, so I count this as a clean ghost.
Oh, one note: in the cistern, there is a spider cave: this is the first spider I have met that actually seems to behave as Nightwalker says they do... that is, that it sees from its butt! When I got near it from behind, it alerted and charged me; but when I ran right in front of it, it didn't even chirp.
So... ghosting hint: run in front of the stupid spider, not behind: it's Chuck Yeager from the back but Mr. Magoo from the front.
Dafydd
________________________________________
23. 12th Sep 2004, 07:53 #223
dafydd
o View Profile
o View Forum Posts
o Private Message
Gamer
Join Date
Aug 2002
Posts
318
A Debt Repaid
Just a quick note, because I'm away from home and my records; but I did just get a Perfect Thief on my second time through this FM, A Debt Repaid, just released.
I'll post a proper writeup on Monday. Just staking my claim .
Dafydd
________________________________________
24. 13th Sep 2004, 18:01 #224
Yandros
o View Profile
o View Forum Posts
o Private Message
o Visit Homepage
Gamer
Join Date
May 2003
Posts
379
Re: So Long, Hammers!
Originally posted by dafydd
this is the first spider I have met that actually seems to behave as Nightwalker says they do... that is, that it sees from its butt! When I got near it from behind, it alerted and charged me; but when I ran right in front of it, it didn't even chirp.
Hey, I wonder if this "problem" could be fixed by simply rotating the spider mesh 180° in a 3D program? Alternatively, we could try to fix the vision properties of the spider archetype...
________________________________________
25. 14th Sep 2004, 07:25 #225
dafydd
o View Profile
o View Forum Posts
o Private Message
Gamer
Join Date
Aug 2002
Posts
318
Or we could call it a feature, not a bug... are spiders bugs?
All right, two ghost reports, one slightly lengthier than the other.
Dafydd